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	<title>Comments on: Carthago delenda est</title>
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		<title>By: Dain</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-390</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-390</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nobody suspects nearly all white environmental protests to be harboring racists because the left likes that cause. Since they dislike free markets and anti-government crowds, these crowds may as well be racist too. 

I believe it was historian Thomas Leonard who disputed Richard Hofstadter&#039;s thesis, now widely popular, that free markets and racism in the American context are inherently linked.

This partly explains motivation to frame these protests as racist in nature. Unfortunately, there is undoubtedly more actual racism within them than at an environmental protest (unless one construes some of the extreme misanthropy as equal opportunity racism, i.e. anti-humanism).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody suspects nearly all white environmental protests to be harboring racists because the left likes that cause. Since they dislike free markets and anti-government crowds, these crowds may as well be racist too. </p>
<p>I believe it was historian Thomas Leonard who disputed Richard Hofstadter&#8217;s thesis, now widely popular, that free markets and racism in the American context are inherently linked.</p>
<p>This partly explains motivation to frame these protests as racist in nature. Unfortunately, there is undoubtedly more actual racism within them than at an environmental protest (unless one construes some of the extreme misanthropy as equal opportunity racism, i.e. anti-humanism).</p>
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		<title>By: Dain</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-389</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-389</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the reason these protesters weren&#039;t holding such rallies during the Bush years is that they aren&#039;t sophisticated enough to know that heuristics such as the label of &quot;Republican&quot; or &quot;Democrat&quot; are poor devices to understanding whether someone is &quot;big government&quot; or not. They just go with the cliche.
Chalk it up to public ignorance of political matters, which is extensive.

And for those at the protest who are fed up with both parties, I don&#039;t see why waiting until now to protest is indicative of racism, subconscious or otherwise. It could be that Bush + Obama - who was expected to be different - is the straw the broke the camel&#039;s back.

I&#039;d have been more in agreement with the stimulus package had it actually followed what I believe to be the advice of Keynes, but as far as I know most of it went to industries that were politically saavy, not those that were actually suffering the most or disproportionately responsible for much of US employment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reason these protesters weren&#8217;t holding such rallies during the Bush years is that they aren&#8217;t sophisticated enough to know that heuristics such as the label of &#8220;Republican&#8221; or &#8220;Democrat&#8221; are poor devices to understanding whether someone is &#8220;big government&#8221; or not. They just go with the cliche.<br />
Chalk it up to public ignorance of political matters, which is extensive.</p>
<p>And for those at the protest who are fed up with both parties, I don&#8217;t see why waiting until now to protest is indicative of racism, subconscious or otherwise. It could be that Bush + Obama &#8211; who was expected to be different &#8211; is the straw the broke the camel&#8217;s back.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d have been more in agreement with the stimulus package had it actually followed what I believe to be the advice of Keynes, but as far as I know most of it went to industries that were politically saavy, not those that were actually suffering the most or disproportionately responsible for much of US employment.</p>
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		<title>By: Thabo Monare</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thabo Monare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Steve
&quot;Good faith&quot; is a difficult one for me to use. I guess you can put it down to being a black man growing up in Apartheid South Africa.
I think of it in the same way as &quot;climate change&quot;, if you wait until you are 100% sure, it will be too late to do anything about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve<br />
&#8220;Good faith&#8221; is a difficult one for me to use. I guess you can put it down to being a black man growing up in Apartheid South Africa.<br />
I think of it in the same way as &#8220;climate change&#8221;, if you wait until you are 100% sure, it will be too late to do anything about it.</p>
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		<title>By: joshmccabe</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-387</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[joshmccabe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian, I totally agree that we should look at the subjective perception of minorities in order to explore why this perception has come about, but the authors at racism review are a couple of white professors. They&#039;re not interested in interpretive sociology, they looking to score political points against ideological opponents. David used the post on the tea party as an example, but they do this for just about every subject.

As I said in the comments over there, the ad hominem attacks of an earlier Marxism have changed from “vulgar economists are just sycophants for the bourgeoisie” to the Crit attack of “angry white protesters are just sycophants for the racist white power structure.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, I totally agree that we should look at the subjective perception of minorities in order to explore why this perception has come about, but the authors at racism review are a couple of white professors. They&#8217;re not interested in interpretive sociology, they looking to score political points against ideological opponents. David used the post on the tea party as an example, but they do this for just about every subject.</p>
<p>As I said in the comments over there, the ad hominem attacks of an earlier Marxism have changed from “vulgar economists are just sycophants for the bourgeoisie” to the Crit attack of “angry white protesters are just sycophants for the racist white power structure.”</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Pitt</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-385</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Pitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David,

I think that this is a great post.

The author from the Racism Review, a considerable number of sociologists, and members of the Congressional Black Caucas, etc. have all averred that the Tea Parties are &quot;racist.&quot;  I certainly disagree with this charge.  
But, the following reasons should enter your calculus prior to inveighing against the Racism Review author:

Try viewing this charge from the perspective of a minority.  For example, where were the Tea Parties when G.W. Bush elected to undertake two (quite expensive) wars?  Where were the Tea Parties when Bush gave massive handouts to steel corporations?  Not to mention the massive healthcare expenditures on Medicare and Medicaid in 2007.  I can go on; but, you get the point.

Minorities may believe the following: Why not healthcare for everyone?  Everyone, or nearly everyone else, for example,, gets something from government, why can&#039;t government include healthcare?  Oh, I know, say minorities, because blacks, Mexicans, etc. may be able to benefit from the massive government spending that our federal government already does.

Yes, the Racism Review may be commiting what we call an ecological fallacy by claiming racism due to the skin complexion of the members of the Tea Parties present.  But, this is the inevitable minority public opinion result of government spending for (a), (b), ... (x), (y), but not (z).

Finally, I actually agree with many aspects of the &quot;bailout&quot; or the stimulus package (and no, I am not an inflationist).  However, once government spending is devoted to something, public opinion will ask this: Why can&#039;t the state extend spending to something else.

Best]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>I think that this is a great post.</p>
<p>The author from the Racism Review, a considerable number of sociologists, and members of the Congressional Black Caucas, etc. have all averred that the Tea Parties are &#8220;racist.&#8221;  I certainly disagree with this charge.<br />
But, the following reasons should enter your calculus prior to inveighing against the Racism Review author:</p>
<p>Try viewing this charge from the perspective of a minority.  For example, where were the Tea Parties when G.W. Bush elected to undertake two (quite expensive) wars?  Where were the Tea Parties when Bush gave massive handouts to steel corporations?  Not to mention the massive healthcare expenditures on Medicare and Medicaid in 2007.  I can go on; but, you get the point.</p>
<p>Minorities may believe the following: Why not healthcare for everyone?  Everyone, or nearly everyone else, for example,, gets something from government, why can&#8217;t government include healthcare?  Oh, I know, say minorities, because blacks, Mexicans, etc. may be able to benefit from the massive government spending that our federal government already does.</p>
<p>Yes, the Racism Review may be commiting what we call an ecological fallacy by claiming racism due to the skin complexion of the members of the Tea Parties present.  But, this is the inevitable minority public opinion result of government spending for (a), (b), &#8230; (x), (y), but not (z).</p>
<p>Finally, I actually agree with many aspects of the &#8220;bailout&#8221; or the stimulus package (and no, I am not an inflationist).  However, once government spending is devoted to something, public opinion will ask this: Why can&#8217;t the state extend spending to something else.</p>
<p>Best</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Horwitz</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-384</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Horwitz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dain:  I don&#039;t accept your assumption that all racists are anti-Semitic.   I saw racist signs among the 9/12 protests but not one that I would even remotely call anti-Semitic.  And believe me, if those were there, they would have been all over the Web.  I have plenty of Jewish family members who are racists but not anti-Semites! :)

And you don&#039;t have to convince me that there&#039;s racism among Ron Paul supporters.  I wrote about this, to my own peril among libertarians, in Jan of 08:  http://hnn.us/blogs/comments/45044.html  But that leaves unanswered the degree to which Tea Partiers are Paul supporters, and the evidence that I&#039;ve seen suggests that some are but many weren&#039;t.  

Thabo:  That is the right question and I agree that there&#039;s probably more subconscious racism than was in evidence from the overt signs.  But is that unique to the Tea Partiers?  And without the clear evidence that racism is behind the protests, isn&#039;t the responsible thing to assume good faith disagreement and revert to racism only when such evidence is reasonably clear?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dain:  I don&#8217;t accept your assumption that all racists are anti-Semitic.   I saw racist signs among the 9/12 protests but not one that I would even remotely call anti-Semitic.  And believe me, if those were there, they would have been all over the Web.  I have plenty of Jewish family members who are racists but not anti-Semites! <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And you don&#8217;t have to convince me that there&#8217;s racism among Ron Paul supporters.  I wrote about this, to my own peril among libertarians, in Jan of 08:  <a href="http://hnn.us/blogs/comments/45044.html" rel="nofollow">http://hnn.us/blogs/comments/45044.html</a>  But that leaves unanswered the degree to which Tea Partiers are Paul supporters, and the evidence that I&#8217;ve seen suggests that some are but many weren&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>Thabo:  That is the right question and I agree that there&#8217;s probably more subconscious racism than was in evidence from the overt signs.  But is that unique to the Tea Partiers?  And without the clear evidence that racism is behind the protests, isn&#8217;t the responsible thing to assume good faith disagreement and revert to racism only when such evidence is reasonably clear?</p>
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		<title>By: Thabo Monare</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-383</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thabo Monare]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The question is &quot;how much of the protests&quot; are driven by racism. A lot of the research on racism and bias, indicates most of it is subconscious, so to merely converse with people, is to only scratch at the surface. Very few people nowadays will put up a racist flag or comment, but many have implicit biases.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is &#8220;how much of the protests&#8221; are driven by racism. A lot of the research on racism and bias, indicates most of it is subconscious, so to merely converse with people, is to only scratch at the surface. Very few people nowadays will put up a racist flag or comment, but many have implicit biases.</p>
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		<title>By: Dain</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 03:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately this doesn&#039;t equalize the protesters (not that you were looking to so &quot;equalize&quot;), as any anti-semitism present among the anti-war protesters would be present among Tea Partiers too, to the degree they catch-all racists. 

I remember reading somewhere (daily kos?) that the girlfriend of the guy who took over the blog/website of the holocaust museum shooter was involved in the Ron Paul campaign in Michigan, or at least a very vocal supporter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately this doesn&#8217;t equalize the protesters (not that you were looking to so &#8220;equalize&#8221;), as any anti-semitism present among the anti-war protesters would be present among Tea Partiers too, to the degree they catch-all racists. </p>
<p>I remember reading somewhere (daily kos?) that the girlfriend of the guy who took over the blog/website of the holocaust museum shooter was involved in the Ron Paul campaign in Michigan, or at least a very vocal supporter.</p>
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		<title>By: Nimish Adhia</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nimish Adhia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-381</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For a lot of people, display of any opposition to government intervention is in itself enough proof of racism. This line of reasoning goes way back has a respectable academic backing. Consider for example the following article:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3791704]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a lot of people, display of any opposition to government intervention is in itself enough proof of racism. This line of reasoning goes way back has a respectable academic backing. Consider for example the following article:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/3791704" rel="nofollow">http://www.jstor.org/pss/3791704</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steven Horwitz</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/09/22/carthago-delenda-est/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steven Horwitz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=316#comment-380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, the anti-War movement had *at least* a tiny sliver of real, live anti-Semitism in it.  That&#039;s not the same as anti-Zionism, but the former was there too.

Whatever the Left&#039;s &quot;will&quot; on that issue, it remains the case that it was an element of some anti-War protests just as racism is a real element of some of the Tea Partiers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the anti-War movement had *at least* a tiny sliver of real, live anti-Semitism in it.  That&#8217;s not the same as anti-Zionism, but the former was there too.</p>
<p>Whatever the Left&#8217;s &#8220;will&#8221; on that issue, it remains the case that it was an element of some anti-War protests just as racism is a real element of some of the Tea Partiers.</p>
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