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	<title>Comments on: What Sustains the Critique of Capitalism?</title>
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	<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/</link>
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		<title>By: Brian Pitt</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Pitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael,

I am not sure that our positions differ as much as you claim.  I, too, consider empirical and theoretical arguments to be requisite for any position - pro or anti-capitalism.  I simply believe that arguments that rely heavily on data invite counterarguments that rely on data.  And round and round we go!

Seriously, a finding, for example, that reveals rising wages under capitalism will only spur someone else to adduce a finding that reveals the long-lived lower wages of blacks as compared to whites under capitalism.  No datum will be definitive.  This is both the beauty and the bane of the social sciences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I am not sure that our positions differ as much as you claim.  I, too, consider empirical and theoretical arguments to be requisite for any position &#8211; pro or anti-capitalism.  I simply believe that arguments that rely heavily on data invite counterarguments that rely on data.  And round and round we go!</p>
<p>Seriously, a finding, for example, that reveals rising wages under capitalism will only spur someone else to adduce a finding that reveals the long-lived lower wages of blacks as compared to whites under capitalism.  No datum will be definitive.  This is both the beauty and the bane of the social sciences.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bishop</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-564</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bishop]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Brian is wrong that empirical investigation sustains the critique of capitalism.  I believe a theoretical arguments are also necessary in discussing policy or political philosophy but I don&#039;t see how the empirical arguments take away from the theoretical ones.  They are both important.  If one is dropped, people will think that much less of capitalism.  

I also differ from Jeffrey Friedman in that I would not label public choice economics trivial.  It is not trivial in the sense that lots of people don&#039;t get it, in fact I&#039;m sure I have more to learn.  Its also not trivial in that, the difficulty of getting a public choice paper published in a prestigious journal is not all that much different than getting a human capital article published.

Finally, though I often find myself defending capitalism to non-economists, Peter and Brian seem to downplay to the point of ignoring the importance and subtlety of good government, and good culture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Brian is wrong that empirical investigation sustains the critique of capitalism.  I believe a theoretical arguments are also necessary in discussing policy or political philosophy but I don&#8217;t see how the empirical arguments take away from the theoretical ones.  They are both important.  If one is dropped, people will think that much less of capitalism.  </p>
<p>I also differ from Jeffrey Friedman in that I would not label public choice economics trivial.  It is not trivial in the sense that lots of people don&#8217;t get it, in fact I&#8217;m sure I have more to learn.  Its also not trivial in that, the difficulty of getting a public choice paper published in a prestigious journal is not all that much different than getting a human capital article published.</p>
<p>Finally, though I often find myself defending capitalism to non-economists, Peter and Brian seem to downplay to the point of ignoring the importance and subtlety of good government, and good culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Pitt</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-559</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Pitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Recall that your point was that what sustains the critique of capitalism is its defenders’ alleged reliance on empirically based arguments that are, as such, open to empirical rebuttal.&quot;

Yes, and it is for this reason that I, which I have learned from the Virginia Political Economists, James Coleman, the classical sociologists, etc., think focusing  on the institutional context is so important.  Data are always influenced by any number of variables such as time, place, situation, history, etc., etc.

The long-lived critique of capitalism is due to, inherently flawed, empirical investigation.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I only wrote this post to make known that, I believe, empirical investigation, itself, sustains the critique.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Recall that your point was that what sustains the critique of capitalism is its defenders’ alleged reliance on empirically based arguments that are, as such, open to empirical rebuttal.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, and it is for this reason that I, which I have learned from the Virginia Political Economists, James Coleman, the classical sociologists, etc., think focusing  on the institutional context is so important.  Data are always influenced by any number of variables such as time, place, situation, history, etc., etc.</p>
<p>The long-lived critique of capitalism is due to, inherently flawed, empirical investigation.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I only wrote this post to make known that, I believe, empirical investigation, itself, sustains the critique.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Friedman</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-558</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffrey Friedman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian, you have listed characteristics of &quot;the choice situation&quot; that are neither universally nor exhaustively true. (For instance, limited knowledge is IMHO usually far more important in politics, but this is outside the purview of all forms of public &quot;choice,&quot; because choice is a conscious process. Most ignorance is not a deliberate choice; it is not rational but radical ignorance.) 

But you have not given a single public-choice &quot;finding&quot; that is both important and true without being trivial. You&#039;ve just given a priori public-choice assumptions.

Recall that your point was that what sustains the critique of capitalism is its defenders&#039; alleged reliance on empirically based arguments that are, as such, open to empirical rebuttal. My response was, &quot;If only it were so!&quot; Instead, I suggested, the defenders of capitalism rely on apriorisms like you have just given, and pseudo-&quot;findings&quot; like those of public choice--all of which opponents of capitalism RIGHTLY see as little more than ideology dressed in social-scientific garb.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, you have listed characteristics of &#8220;the choice situation&#8221; that are neither universally nor exhaustively true. (For instance, limited knowledge is IMHO usually far more important in politics, but this is outside the purview of all forms of public &#8220;choice,&#8221; because choice is a conscious process. Most ignorance is not a deliberate choice; it is not rational but radical ignorance.) </p>
<p>But you have not given a single public-choice &#8220;finding&#8221; that is both important and true without being trivial. You&#8217;ve just given a priori public-choice assumptions.</p>
<p>Recall that your point was that what sustains the critique of capitalism is its defenders&#8217; alleged reliance on empirically based arguments that are, as such, open to empirical rebuttal. My response was, &#8220;If only it were so!&#8221; Instead, I suggested, the defenders of capitalism rely on apriorisms like you have just given, and pseudo-&#8221;findings&#8221; like those of public choice&#8211;all of which opponents of capitalism RIGHTLY see as little more than ideology dressed in social-scientific garb.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Pitt</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Pitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;What is an example of a Virginia public choice finding that is neither trivially true nor false?&quot;

Its focus on the purposive action of situated actors.

Seriously, I will attempt to answer your question in interrogative form.  
Choice in an any context (e.g., market choice or government choice) confronts the perennial conflict between potentially unlimited demand and limited supply.  Government, as opposed to the market, however, dispenses with the rationing tool of the market, i.e., prices, and thus, other rationing methods emerge to combat this limited supply.  So, without the rationing device of prices, how do government actors combat limited supply?  (Learning how rules influence choice in government is what is fascinating about public choice - something sociologists, I will add, will benefit from becoming familiar with.)  To me, this is the value-added component of public choice.  
And to me, this is neither trivially true nor false.  Given that Elinor Ostrom was recently awarded the Nobel in Economic Science suggests that public choice findings are neither trivially true nor false.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What is an example of a Virginia public choice finding that is neither trivially true nor false?&#8221;</p>
<p>Its focus on the purposive action of situated actors.</p>
<p>Seriously, I will attempt to answer your question in interrogative form.<br />
Choice in an any context (e.g., market choice or government choice) confronts the perennial conflict between potentially unlimited demand and limited supply.  Government, as opposed to the market, however, dispenses with the rationing tool of the market, i.e., prices, and thus, other rationing methods emerge to combat this limited supply.  So, without the rationing device of prices, how do government actors combat limited supply?  (Learning how rules influence choice in government is what is fascinating about public choice &#8211; something sociologists, I will add, will benefit from becoming familiar with.)  To me, this is the value-added component of public choice.<br />
And to me, this is neither trivially true nor false.  Given that Elinor Ostrom was recently awarded the Nobel in Economic Science suggests that public choice findings are neither trivially true nor false.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Friedman</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-556</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffrey Friedman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is an example of a Virginia public choice finding that is neither trivially true nor false?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is an example of a Virginia public choice finding that is neither trivially true nor false?</p>
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		<title>By: bpitt</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bpitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I really don’t get your point, Brian. Are you saying that the fact that free-marketeers have tried to ground their arguments on facts is bad, because it leads to counterarguments based on facts? If so, that is just tough luck. I think that is your position, right? I.e., there isn’t much we can do about it.&quot;

1. This is, by and large, my point.  I do not, however, think that because they base their arguments on facts is either &quot;bad&quot; or &quot;good.&quot;  (I happen not to like either/or reasoning.)  I just believe that one piece of evidence (whether pro or anti-capitalism) will invite another piece of counter-evidence (either pro or anti-capitalism).
2. I agree that &quot;what people believe are the facts of the social sciences.&quot;  However, many people believe, especially economists who study &quot;multiplier effects,&quot; e.g., that minimum wages improve the quality of life of minimum wage earners.  And this is true - for minimum wage earners.  But what about those who cannot obtain minimum wages - e.g., grandmothers who would like to be paid for baby sitting their grandchildren, but reside in subsidized housing, which calls for employment or a &quot;work activity&quot; outside the home or minority teens.  Many minority teenagers, for example, who are not employed, will be happy to obtain the opportunity to obtain (minimum wage) employment.  But, the minimum wage decreases the likelihood that these folks will obtain the ability to be employed because they cannot be remunerated at their &quot;marginal productivity.&quot;  That many folks who support the minimum wage have never heard this does not make it trivially true or false.  It is simply a &quot;fact of the social sciences&quot; that leads to government to support minimum wages - and members of the Congressional Black Caucas, in particular.
3. Bryan Caplan, I would argue, makes Virginia public choice arguments that do not lead to libertarian/classical liberal conclusions: e.g., the anti-market bias.  My understanding of Virginia Public Choice, rather than Chicago or Rochester Public Choice, leads me to focus on the intentions and plans of situated actors (or actors operating within institutional contexts.)  Public Choice findings too, in my opinion, are neither trivially true nor psuedo-factual.

Thanks for the feedback.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I really don’t get your point, Brian. Are you saying that the fact that free-marketeers have tried to ground their arguments on facts is bad, because it leads to counterarguments based on facts? If so, that is just tough luck. I think that is your position, right? I.e., there isn’t much we can do about it.&#8221;</p>
<p>1. This is, by and large, my point.  I do not, however, think that because they base their arguments on facts is either &#8220;bad&#8221; or &#8220;good.&#8221;  (I happen not to like either/or reasoning.)  I just believe that one piece of evidence (whether pro or anti-capitalism) will invite another piece of counter-evidence (either pro or anti-capitalism).<br />
2. I agree that &#8220;what people believe are the facts of the social sciences.&#8221;  However, many people believe, especially economists who study &#8220;multiplier effects,&#8221; e.g., that minimum wages improve the quality of life of minimum wage earners.  And this is true &#8211; for minimum wage earners.  But what about those who cannot obtain minimum wages &#8211; e.g., grandmothers who would like to be paid for baby sitting their grandchildren, but reside in subsidized housing, which calls for employment or a &#8220;work activity&#8221; outside the home or minority teens.  Many minority teenagers, for example, who are not employed, will be happy to obtain the opportunity to obtain (minimum wage) employment.  But, the minimum wage decreases the likelihood that these folks will obtain the ability to be employed because they cannot be remunerated at their &#8220;marginal productivity.&#8221;  That many folks who support the minimum wage have never heard this does not make it trivially true or false.  It is simply a &#8220;fact of the social sciences&#8221; that leads to government to support minimum wages &#8211; and members of the Congressional Black Caucas, in particular.<br />
3. Bryan Caplan, I would argue, makes Virginia public choice arguments that do not lead to libertarian/classical liberal conclusions: e.g., the anti-market bias.  My understanding of Virginia Public Choice, rather than Chicago or Rochester Public Choice, leads me to focus on the intentions and plans of situated actors (or actors operating within institutional contexts.)  Public Choice findings too, in my opinion, are neither trivially true nor psuedo-factual.</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Friedman</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-554</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffrey Friedman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-554</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really don&#039;t get your point, Brian. Are you saying that the fact that free-marketeers have tried to ground their arguments on facts is bad, because it leads to counterarguments based on facts? If so, that is just tough luck. I think that is your position, right? I.e., there isn&#039;t much we can do about it.

However, I think we&#039;re in a far worse position than that because in reality, our arguments are all too often *not* grounded in facts. Public choice theory is just one example of pseudo-factual &quot;findings&quot; that are either trivial or false, but that just happen to point toward libertarian conclusions. And then of course there is the libertarian conflation of &quot;liberty&quot; with &quot;modern private property rights.&quot; What I&#039;m getting at is that we have the reputation for being ideologues who embrace any &quot;findings&quot; or theories that buttress predetermined conclusions. We are seen as &quot;market fundamentalists,&quot; a la religious fundamentalists. 

IF ONLY the problem were that we&#039;d presented such fabulous airtight empirically based arguments that, just in the nature of things, are always open to rebuttal! But that isn&#039;t the actual situation, IMHO; it is a situation we should strive to make happen. But the only way to do that is to find out what people&#039;s actual objections to capitalism are--which don&#039;t have to do with its lack of &quot;spontaneity&quot; etc., but that it causes poverty and insecurity and racism and sexism and imperialism--and then go investigate these claims with an open mind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t get your point, Brian. Are you saying that the fact that free-marketeers have tried to ground their arguments on facts is bad, because it leads to counterarguments based on facts? If so, that is just tough luck. I think that is your position, right? I.e., there isn&#8217;t much we can do about it.</p>
<p>However, I think we&#8217;re in a far worse position than that because in reality, our arguments are all too often *not* grounded in facts. Public choice theory is just one example of pseudo-factual &#8220;findings&#8221; that are either trivial or false, but that just happen to point toward libertarian conclusions. And then of course there is the libertarian conflation of &#8220;liberty&#8221; with &#8220;modern private property rights.&#8221; What I&#8217;m getting at is that we have the reputation for being ideologues who embrace any &#8220;findings&#8221; or theories that buttress predetermined conclusions. We are seen as &#8220;market fundamentalists,&#8221; a la religious fundamentalists. </p>
<p>IF ONLY the problem were that we&#8217;d presented such fabulous airtight empirically based arguments that, just in the nature of things, are always open to rebuttal! But that isn&#8217;t the actual situation, IMHO; it is a situation we should strive to make happen. But the only way to do that is to find out what people&#8217;s actual objections to capitalism are&#8211;which don&#8217;t have to do with its lack of &#8220;spontaneity&#8221; etc., but that it causes poverty and insecurity and racism and sexism and imperialism&#8211;and then go investigate these claims with an open mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Pitt</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-553</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Pitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good point Dain.  I will add, however, that I do not suspect that departing from empirical and material arguments for capitalism is desirable - or for that matter possible!  But, everyone needs to be aware that, regardless of whether s/he is making an argument pro or anti-capitalism, empirical and material claims only invite additional empirical and material counter-claims.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point Dain.  I will add, however, that I do not suspect that departing from empirical and material arguments for capitalism is desirable &#8211; or for that matter possible!  But, everyone needs to be aware that, regardless of whether s/he is making an argument pro or anti-capitalism, empirical and material claims only invite additional empirical and material counter-claims.</p>
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		<title>By: Dain</title>
		<link>http://thesociologicalimagination.com/2009/10/24/what-sustains-the-critique-of-capitalism/#comment-551</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesociologicalimagination.com/?p=440#comment-551</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would seem to me that departing from an empirical and material argument for captialism would doom the advocates of markets even further. The emotive rudiments of political philosophy inherent to most people (excepting autistic libertarians, ala Cowen?) does not take kindly to a positive evaluation of an extended order of anyonymous market actors just somehow managing to produce, in the aggregage, a more attractive world to live in.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would seem to me that departing from an empirical and material argument for captialism would doom the advocates of markets even further. The emotive rudiments of political philosophy inherent to most people (excepting autistic libertarians, ala Cowen?) does not take kindly to a positive evaluation of an extended order of anyonymous market actors just somehow managing to produce, in the aggregage, a more attractive world to live in.</p>
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